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The recent 'best of the midwest' article said Zaire has a 2.9 GPA with a 20 ACT....isn't a 20 ACT considered below average and not exactly ND quality? I'll dismiss the GPA bc I know he goes to a good school and he could very well be taking AP classes at that very good school, but it's hard to dismiss standardized testing.
Athletes aren't held to the same academic standard as your average ND student for admissions. Especially football players. Even if he isn't taking APs, a 2.9 is a B average. I don't know what minimum requirement ND has for standardized testing, but I'd assume since he has taken an official visit that he has met whatever was needed?
It's considered slightly below average but meets the College Readiness Benchmark. I don't think it's an issue with ND admissions.
I thought the point of 'Notre Dame' was for higher standards(not saying the exact same as regular admission) and I understand the "if he's committed he qualifies" argument even though it's somewhat obtuse. A 2.9 isn't a B in all states either, like here in SC, but the GPA is still subjective. My only point(because it's the nature of society to run to absurd extremes and assume I don't think he should be a part of our class) is that I feel a 20 ACT score is significantly lower than what I 'expected' from an ND student
ND has the highest average ACT score in the country at around 33 (this includes the Ivies...but more so because they are SAT slanted).
Anyway, a 20 is obviously well below the average ND student but as far as student-athletes go, I doubt it's a problem. Recall the stories that Golden Tate was not the best student in the world...
In Ohio the 2.9 would be closer to a B average and actually is higher if he did not take APB classes of his possible grade point. I mean the way it works if you take lots of ap classes that would that average would be out of a possible 4.5 plus. I also do not think it appropriate to be discussing his grades. He qualified to get in and I am sure with our graduation rate is also going to graduate.I am also guessing as ee he will be able to carry lighter loads over his career than he could have if started next fall.
This post was edited by Gulinias 19 months ago
I also think that the 33 average is ridiculously high and not necessary to graduate from ND. I know many kids who were at great schools and had under 30 act scores and graduated from tough schools with flying colors.
Some students are test challenged. I always did well grade wise (carried a 3.7), but tested badly. As far as the 2.9 is that cumulative or for this year? If it is cumulative, perhaps it has been rising after maybe a bad freshmen year or what have you.
The hitman artist formerly known as Acemang
I think that the notion of Notre Dame having higher standards requires taking a more holistic look at how an athlete projects for success. Clearly, there are different standards for athletes than the general student population. Once, the athlete is enrolled, he or she can receive different levels of support (e.g., tutoring) than a student from the general population. These are the realities of trying to remain competitive at the highest level of collegiate athletics. However, every athlete accepted projects to be able to succeed in this environment, and with a 97-99% graduation rate, the statistics bear this out. Going back to the 1980's, there was a requirement that student athletes come in meeting some kind of minimum requirements or else they would have to sit out their Freshman year under what was called "Proposition 48." That led to some of ND"s greatest success stories, on and off the field, with athletes whose performance on standardized tests was below the norm. Obviously, we all might have our opinions on what should qualify someone to be a Notre Dame student athlete, whether it's academic or behavior, but the people making decisions appear to have developed a comprehensive formula which identifies individuals capable of succeeding at Notre Dame. Standardized test scores are only one piece of that formula.
I may not be pretty, but I'm fast.....
POTW 1/31/11 - 2/6/11
And this is what upset me when people would say over the last decade or so, "Notre Dame needs to lower its standards or 'give breaks' with its admissions standards for the football team."
IT ALREADY DOES, AND HAS PREVIOUSLY AS WELL!!!!!
I can probably recite several dozen ND players over the years who had ACT scores between 16 to 20, SAT scores under 900, a GPA in the 2.9 range, etc. Virtually all of them ended up graduating from here and have become stellar representatives of the school. Tony Rice said it best: "You have to really try to fail here." Fathers Hesburgh and Joyce recognized back in the 1960s that if the school would have to make exceptions like this — and that's why Joyce hated the word 'scholarship' for football players and always used "grant in aid" — then it was the school's obligation to see to it that they would receive the proper guidance and tutoring needed to succeed. He created the academic advisor position for athletes (MIke DeCicco was the first), which was ahead of its time.
Now, there are still the basic requirements of 16 core credit units (4 years of English, three years of math, two years of foreign language, science, etc) that is still mandated for admission (the NCAA requires only 14 core units). You can't let just anyone in because he will be swallowed up by the academic competition. What admissions has to do is interview the prospect and also see how his personality, background and ambition fit the University values. Not one size fits all in this case. Just as one example, Arnaz Battle (1998-2002) had a 17 ACT and was from Shreveport, La., not exactly a noted bastion of education. But he had his core credits, demonstrated that he applied himself in classes with a 4.0 gap, and interviewed well with the office. He's done very well for himself.
A great football player, Joyce reasoned, adds value to the school, just like a virtuoso pianist, a talented painter or a soprano singer, even if their academic background might not be as impressive as someone else's. However, the football player cannot be just seen as a hired mercenary who leaves unarmed to face the world once his eligibility expires.
This post was edited by Lou Somogyi 19 months ago
Thank you, and great point! There's nothing wrong with subscribing to the theory of multiple intelligences.
I've always felt that the mission of a Catholic university or high school should include identifying students from disadvantaged backgrounds who have the desire to succeed and helping them achieve that success.
A 2.9 and a 20 is not terrible. Basically all B's. The act score is pretty low for ND standards.
Had I been a straight A student, I'd have gone to ND and not Mizzou most likely.
With athletes though, if this is all true, it does open your eyes a bit as to just how much of a gap there is between the "students" and the "Student-athletes". Bless ND for making their athlete's hold up the bargain on the student end, as we all know other Universities are not quite up to par there.
The other item which strikes me is how much lower some of these students who don't make it into ND had their grades/scores. In turn, you see those students go to another school and get in with no problems. Just kind of wows you a bit.
Ultimately, this is really none of anyone's business at the end of the day. I think it is something for kids that should remain private.
I would guess, since i just took the act, about 1/15 of the football team actually scored a 30 on their act. the vast majority are likely around zaire in the low 20s.
ND's admission standards for football players aren't really that different than most schools. I think the biggest difference is that ND requires 2 extra "core" classes to be taken in high school.
ND's higher standards really only apply once the kids get to school.
Well said Lou. Great post.
Two time Poster of The Week, 2011 and 2013.
great points Lou...its what I've said all along. We have given these student athletes that chance in the past and continue in the present. Coaching has been why we havent succeeded on the field.
I truly believe that at a place like ND these student athletes succeed in the classroom because the institution truly cares so that they do not fail...this is a more accurate explanation of Tony Rice's comment than simply assuming the University "pushes them through" Both he and Zorich are 2 great examples of giving these types of students resources to succeed...and in my opinion, doing it right! I'm most proud of our University...and this season being both #1 in graduation rate (knowing our kids go to class and EARN their degree) and on the field...is truly laudable. Couldn't be prouder to be an ND grad.
Make no mistake, this is a massive accomodation that I imagine is made to this extent at ND only for football and maybe men's basketball (if that). Among other data for this year's admitted freshman , "The median student ranks in the top two percent of their high school class. Two-thirds of those in the top 3 percent of their high school class were not admitted." (ND Observer) The average ACT is just shy of 33 (99th percentile).
Notre Dame has become extremely selective with a freshman class profile rivaling most of the Ivy League and all other highly selective schools. There are incredibly talented and hard working students (who are more than just bookworms) who have wanted to attend Notre Dame from a very young age who are not admitted every year, and increasingly so. I know several.
That being said, I am all for this admission and thoroughly agree with Father Joyce's explanation. The graduation rate speaks for itself.
Great post! As usual!
Your expectations will be forwarded directly to Admissions
Irish Oak in Chicago
I had a friend who scored perfect on the ACT. In reality, he's dumber than a sack of hammers. Standardized testing makes us, well, standardized. It's a sad way to approach intelligence, but at least kids have the privilege to learn the basics.
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