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Lou/ Anybody : Would like your thoughts on ND Turnovers

  • Lou, I know that you have explained the turnover stats for various years before, but in view of the number of turnovers on Sat. ( I know it is only spring practice, however, we did look like Keyston Kops at times), but, maybe you could do it again. When a team has a young QB inteceptions are easy to understand, but having an extraordinary amount of fumbles is harder to explain. We often hear buzz words like ' more concentration" etc, and wwe know that the coaches are working on it, but still it is hard to explain excessive numbers fumbles.

    A little quick research and random sampling showed that in 2005, ND lost 6 of 17 fumbles and in 2006, they lost 7 of 13 fumbles. In 2012, we lost 8 of 18 and in 2011, we lost 12 of 22. I remember in an article, Lou mentioned some years a larger number of fumbles didn't necessarily mean a bad season, but I think that his examples were from the somewhat distant past although I could be wrong.

    It looks like 6 - 8 is the average amount that a successful team should fumble and lose the ball. Another thing that sicks out to me is that, in the past two years, we have fumbled 40 times. That is a lot of fumbles. Of course, some could be attributed to a young QB as well.

    It is no necessary to point out that this was a very random sample, but I was too lazy to reseach more years for a better sample.

    Anybody have any thoughts about ND's excessive turnovers

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by irishm on 4/23/2012 at 3:46 PM

    irishm

  • irishm,

    If I had an answer to this inquiry, I'd be way too smart to be doing what I am. It's like attempting to answer mood swings amongst our more tender, docile gender.

    Example: In 2000, Bob Davie's Irish set the NCAA record for fewest turnovers in a season with 8 (11-game regular season). The next season, on the first play from scrimmage against at Nebraska, Notre Dame loses a fumble and that avalanche continues throughout a 5-6 season that gets Davie fired. It was basically the same personnel everywhere, same QB (LoVecchio), same running backs (Julius Jones, Tony Fisher, Terrance Howard), same receivers (David Givens, Javin Hunter), etc., and all of a sudden the Irish tripled the turnovers.

    How do you explain something like that?

    What you're referring to is when I pointed out how in days gone by turnovers were more accepted as a part of the game.

    For example, the 1952 ND team that finished No. 3 and had four first-round picks (Lattner, Heap, Guglielmi, Worden) had 57 fumbles in 10 games. Yes, 57! The good news it lost "only" 29. Plus, with 15 interceptions it was 44 turnovers in 10 games. The next year, the unbeaten Irish improved to fumbling only 37 times and losing 19.

    The 1977 national champs had 39, compared to the 29 in 2011. The difference is last year's defense forced 13 turnovers while the 1977 forced 52.

    I just brought those up when people say things like, "I bet Leahy and Parseghian, etc., wouldn't have put up with all those turnovers."

    Revisionist history is alive and well.

    Lou Somogyi

  • Always good to have you on hand Lou to bring perspective to those who
    would make ND football under those wonderful coaches some sort of
    "shangri-la" where only good things happened. I seem to recall that
    Johnny Lattner fumbled so much that Leahy made him carry the football
    around the campus so that he would get use to holding on to it.

    hemy

  • Lou Somogyi said...

    ...

    Revisionist history is alive and well.

    A HUGE +1 for Lou and the reference to revisionist history!! biggrin

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    CMC--Chief Engineer for Carolina Recruiting Pipeline and Director of Zone Blocking. As the offensive line goes, so the team goes!

    ncirish2002

  • Thanks for the information, Lou. Since there is no way to explain it, let's hope that the turnover gods smile on us next year.

    irishm

  • Lou Somogyi said...

    What you're referring to is when I pointed out how in days gone by turnovers were more accepted as a part of the game.

    For example, the 1952 ND team that finished No. 3 and had four first-round picks (Lattner, Heap, Guglielmi, Worden) had 57 fumbles in 10 games. Yes, 57! The good news it lost "only" 29. Plus, with 15 interceptions it was 44 turnovers in 10 games. The next year, the unbeaten Irish improved to fumbling only 37 times and losing 19.

    The 1977 national champs had 39, compared to the 29 in 2011. The difference is last year's defense forced 13 turnovers while the 1977 forced 52.

    What do you attribute that to, Lou? Is it because back then the games were shorter and lower scoring because the emphasis was on running the ball, special teams and defense and no one really had a prolific passing offense like they do today?

    My luck w/the Irish 18-6...GO IRISH!!!

    simm

  • Simm,

    I can't say for sure, but in the 1950s you did have players lining up on both offense and defense, so I imagine that can take a toll on you during the game. In the 1952 ND-Purdue game I think there were about 21 fumbles between the two teams, and ND recovered I think 16 of them. That was the game John Lattner himself fumbled five times, leading Frank Leahy to have him carry a football (which Lattner put a handle on) around the campus as penance. Leahy even called him into his office to see if was doing any betting or shaving of points with a certain group in his hometown of Chicago.

    Pretty much since 1978, all the rule changes also have been geared to aid the offenses. It used to favor defenses more, but changes were made to help produce more scoring. Offenses have also become more sophisticated with the pass, whereas back then the theory was three things can happen on a pass and two of them are bad. QBs like Joe Namath routinely had more INTs than TDs, and the same with ND QBs like Theismann, Clements and Montana.

    But truthfully, I don't have the answer.

    Lou Somogyi

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    Irish legend CMC Quote Master and Director of Football Related Discussions 5 Time POTW & 2 Time WPOTW Winner Joined 09/17/05

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