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Sins of the Father

  • Great back and forth between Risk and Ham. Kudos to both.

    Here in Missouri the news is about MU Coach Pinkel and his comments on Paterno made during SEC media day. Apparently anyone who says anything about Paterno that falls short of thinking he should be dug up and hung is somehow lumped in as an enabler, etc.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by dpfenny on 7/21/2012 at 7:52 PM

    dpfenny

  • KingSolomon said...

    There was proof that Powell lied to the UN? When did that come out? Please, cite something on that, if possible, beyond mere speculation.

    On a more serious note, I enjoyed reading the back-and-forth between Ham and Risksorter because of the respectable manner of their debate, the eloquence and clarity of their statements and the fact that there are good values underlying both positions. That being said, I personally fall on the side of the debate presented by Ham (where the issue is not whether the PSU football program should be punished but the severity of the punishment). And here's why.

    Risksorter stated that deterrence is highly overrated, but I disagree. When a hammer is brought down, its felt. But, over time, the feeling and impression that it left starts to fade. Sometimes it takes years to fade, but that's what gradually happened with the deterrent effect of the death penalty in the SMU situtation. It's inaccurate to say that it wasn't a deterrent. It surely was. Every program woke up to the possibility that their boosters might be doing something bad and that severe consequences could be a very real possibility. But then time passed. Years. Some coaches, some programs, decided to test the waters. To see what they could get away with again. And so you have programs that started to lose "institutional control." Anyway, this is my long-winded way of saying that a deterrent, even when very strong, may lost its strength over time and must later be reinforced. Its been so many years since the death penalty was used that our institutions have gotten to a point where they no longer fear it. Maybe they should. Maybe its about time to reinforce the deterrent effect of the NCAA's biggest stick. So, that being said, in this particular instance of PSU, are the most serious punishments, including the death penalty for the football program, appropriate for the wrongdoing of those at the highest levels acting in the "best interests of their program?'

    I think they would be appropriate. The wrongdoing in this case touches not only on the fact that wrongdoing was done to benefit the football program as well as the careers and images of these individuals and the university, but it was a wrongdoing that touches on the very nature of what being a college administrator, professor or any type of educator is all about. The NCAA should bring down the hammer here, not just because this relates to football. Not just because they can show how by-laws were broken in ways that improperly benefitted the football program. And not just because the wrongdoing in this instance involved the most serious types of harm to our youth. All of those are good reasons to bring the hammer down. But for me, the real reason I think the hammer should be employedinthis case is because there needs to be an example set that relates the the very nature of being an educator in our institutions of higher learning. (when I'm done typing this I'll find the quote that I'm thinking of from Dr. Emmerrt's letter to PSU that touches on this concern). People, especially every college professor, administrator, coach, etc. needs to made to seriously think about their roles in developing our young people and how everything they do can have a serious effect on that development. To me, this case is about reinforcing our expectation of everyone involved in higher education.

    I also believe that if the NCAA's toughest penalty is never employed, even in the most egregious circumstances, then its a tacit admission that it really doesn't exist. That it will never be used. And any detterent effect is effectively removed altogether. One of the many serious aspects of this scenario that the NCAA must contemplate is "what happens if we don't use our big stick in this case?" Also, if the NCAA imposed the death penalty by telling PSU they can't field a team for a year or two or more, they would also be bringing back the almost outdated notion that the primary purpose of our colleges and universities is education. It 's not football. Football is not sacred. As an athletic endeavor its appropriate to be part of the education process, even though its now grown well beyond what it used to be to the point that, with football, its almost a professional business form separate from the educational mission of these schools. Maybe it would be a good idea to bring back that old notion that football is a game and that no football program, none whatsoever, supersedes the educational role of our colleges and universities and, especially, our expectations of all of the professors, coaches, administrators, etc. involved.

    But to repeat myself, I respect Risk's views and am often reminded of the need for compassion and leniency - and most of the time I try to find those things in my heart. Unfortunately for PSU, if I were the decison-maker in this instance, I would probably tell myself that there is a time and place for everything, and this is the time and place for full accountability and consequences.

    King, some observations on your incisive post.

    I think you are correct in your views as pertains to what I will call routine violations.

    These usually occur in an ongoing cat and mouse atmosphere, where the booster community -- either in collusion with athletic department personnel or not -- risks seeing how far it can go in breaking the rules to attract recruits. There are, of course, other violations regarding eligibility, practice, etc., but they also fall mainly within the everyday operations of college football as we know them.

    The Sandusky/Penn State scandal is, in contrast, a complete outlier event. The triggering crime had nothing DIRECTLY to do with the operations of the team, and none of the usual offenses, as far as we know, were responsible for INITIATING what occurred. Instead, there were crimes committed of a sexual nature and a subsequent cover up.

    My view is that, unless that NCAA is specifically empowered to act in cases of this kind of moral turpitude, there is no reason it should. Such a situation is outside the realm of offenses it generally sees; they are arguably above its pay grade; law enforcement is acting; the miscreants are gone; and punishing Penn State for some kind of pervasive insensitivity, even if such an attitude could be empiracally proven to exist, which I strongly doubt, would be a pretty overweaning and arbitrary move.

    Further, you may have noted that Ham and I have been arguing this point of collateral damage. But, in truth, if the NCAA were to step in, be they empowered or not, now that the persons responsible for this entire series of events have exited the scene, the only people who would be the recepients of any sanctions would be those WHO DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS. Namely, the players; uninvoled coaches, administration/university staff; student body; and alums.

    In other words, we are not even talking collateral damage here, as I initially characterized it, but ACTUAL PRIMARY TARGETS, given that the culprits are already toast or will be. Again, this smells to me like collective punishment, i.e. the bark of authority meant to scare people in a blunt way, rather than the selective application of justice.

    As for deterrence, there is no way the Sandusky's of this world can be deterred from much of anything before the fact. They tend to be psychopathic compulsives who can only be deterred once they have been outted. And by deterred, I mean jailed and/or monitored.

    If there is another Sandusky engaging right now in similar activities on some college campus, he is about as unlikely to control himself as a result of anything tne NCAA might do to Penn State as the triggerman in Colorado the other night would have been in the wake of some other mass shooter going to jail. That deterrence dog just won't hunt.

    Where your deterrence argument does carry water is in response to the coverup issue, as coaches and administrators are regularly tempted, I would imagine, to cross the line in respect of any number of actions that might cause their teams to either accrue advantage or keep from losing it. But, again, unless the NCAA has the power to rule in this matter, why should it given the reasons I cited in paragraph five, the one that begins with "My view . . ."

    I would argue, in furtherance of my view, that what has already occurred at Penn State has provided more than enough deterrence ammo to last a long time. Did the people involved in facilitating this cover up not get the rocket? And that is what is of primary importance to the people on the ground, viz. will they be booted out and might they go to jail? I mean, worrying about what happens to the program at that stage is pretty much an afterthought.

    Furthermore, if someone is stupid enough to run the kind of coverup Paterno ran -- and he really let himself get boxed in here -- he's going to do it anyway because, like Paterno, he is going to think that his vital interests -- as crasy as those may be -- are better served by doing so. It's often just bad judgement under pressure. Lee sent Pickett into withering fire at Gettysburg. He apparently saw the situation as desperate.

    Let me also say that any IMMUNIZATION, as opposed to mere deterrence, against a similar incident occurring as a result of the NCAA punishing the Penn State community will not happen, a fact which leads me to wonder if some just want the NCAA to be SEEN as having acted, so as to feel that a sanitizing finish has been put on these proceedings, while relieving the rest of us of any passive or residual guilt in this matter as a result of any similar failings we may be repressing.

    I am sure there are folks at SEC, PAC 10 and Big 12 schools, to mention just a few, who are as over-committed to their football programs as there are at Penn State. But copping an attitude is not the same as committing a crime. The distance between a thought and an act is often the measure of a person's psychological health, as precarious a proximity as that may seem. So, why would we go after these people? They didn't do anything.

    Punish those responsible and let everyone else live to die another day. It is possible to do that here and deal with tomorrow, tomorrow. The world may just not come to an end if Penn State is allowed to keep playing football. And I don't thnk we will be any morally the pooer either.

    Well, now I've really done it. I will now have to deal not only with Ham and TX, but you probably as well. Fair enough. Sometimes you just need to get it all out. Play as well as you can, then, as Miles Davis used to say, "go further."

    Risksorter

  • I don't know about you guys, but in my not so eloquent terms, if they seemed genuinely sorry about all of this then I think the majority of people who want severe punishment ( mainly me ) would call off the hounds.

    Not once have I seen anything that resembles true guilt or remorse. Instead they are fighting with one another trying to place blame and arguing ove a damn statue. Saying they would decide on it as " It's a Penn State thing "
    That statement has to be one of the most insulting and enraging statements throughout this ordeal. How dare they utter those words. It's also a Penn State thing to place football above the welfare of defenseless children and enable their rape for over a decade.

    Another statement made was " We have already donated 2.4 million to child abuse awareness efforts." Like that is supposed to be enough to make amends? Not even close, add a zero to that and that's a start. Throughout this whole thing all of these things are things done by the trustees. Don't get me started on students, players , alumni and fans. It is still in their culture to skirt the blame and try to place it on others. One players statements about the statue is " If it comes down it's on." Really? You're going to threaten? I mean for crying out loud they rioted because Paterno was fired. And it turns out it was 13 years too late.

    They need a dose of reality in Happy Valley and quickly. I believe the institution in need of the biggest example and lesson is PSU. Because according to them there is still a " Penn State thing." And that is what got us into this mess in first place. So in short, cut the lights and shut it down.

    This post was edited by 19BlueAndGold85 on 7/21/2012 at 9:34 PM

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